PM Lee Hsien Loong's Media Wrap Up in Munich, Germany (Jul 2017)

Q: PM, can you give us your assessment of the G20 Summit and how it went? Including the bilateral meetings that we had with the various countries and our relationships with those countries?

PM Lee Hsien Loong: From Singapore’s point of view, I think it was a good meeting. We got our point of view across. We explained what we needed to say on trade, digitalisation and jobs. At the same time, I got useful meetings with the people whom I had hoped to meet. President Xi Jinping, President Trump, Prime Minister Abe, President Macri of Argentina, Mr Rutte, Prime Minister of Netherlands. From Singapore’s point of view, it is a fruitful meeting.

From the overall G20 point of view, it is more difficult because United States’ (US) view has become different from the view of the other participants, on trade as well as on climate change. The communique reflected this difference in views and the tension in the positions of the different countries. But for Singapore, I found it a productive visit.

Q: PM, during your intervention, you talked about the importance of small states banding together to make their collective voices heard. Can you elaborate on the role of small states today and the importance of small states being included in important processes like the G20?

PM Lee: I talked about it in 2015 when I made the Rajaratnam lecture. Basically we are under no illusion. This is a dangerous world. There are countries big and small. Singapore is small. We have to take the world as it is. At the same time, we have to protect our interests and do the best for ourselves we can in the world. I think these two are complementary, they are not contradictory. We have to be aware of the realities. But at the same time, that does not mean surrendering ourselves to our fate. If we can make a contribution, if we can work with other countries in a common cause – other small countries certainly, in the Global Governance Group, but other big countries as well, G20 – and we have something to bring to the table. Then I think that is to our advantage, our voice is heard, and we are able to protect and advance our interests.

At the same time, when there are important issues which arise which concern Singapore, I think it is our responsibility to highlight them, deal with them, and push for them. Particularly when it is a matter of our security, or safety or fundamental interests concerning Singapore’s position in the world, such as the rule of international law, such as peaceful resolution of disputes. If we do not stand up and be counted, you cannot lie low and hope that nobody will notice you. That is how Singapore must conduct our foreign policy.

In specific cases, there will be issues you have to discuss, debate, which way, which is the right thing to do, in a particular situation. The debate is most fruitful if people stand up, speak sincerely and with conviction. Stand by what they believe in, then you have a clash of ideas, and then we hope we can resolve it one way or the other. But if people do not put positions clearly, and they put up a view but actually you are not sure whether it stands or what is intended, we begin to mince our words or talk in indirections and ellipses. That makes our job more complicated. It is not necessary. Believe in what you say. Speak it, discuss it, and disagree if necessary, and we find the best way forward.

Q: PM, actually just going off that, to clarify, regarding small states as well. There has been some debate or so on this role. Some are saying that small states should stay small states while others say we should not be thinking small and allowing ourselves to be bullied. Just want to get a sense on where on the spectrum do you stand?

PM Lee: You know where I stand because I have been Prime Minister 13 years and you can see from Singapore’s foreign policy the specific decisions we have made and what directions we are taking. I think generally these are the right directions. We have to adjust them as situation changes. If there is a new Administration in America, we have to consider what that means for the world. As China becomes more influential, we have to consider how we can develop our relationship with China. These are adjustments which we have to make because the world is not static.

Q: Prime Minister, you also mentioned yesterday at the National Day reception that such meetings actually send out a signal to people from both countries as well as the officials that our relations are in good order and moving ahead. In terms of our relationships with US as well as China, which may have been strained because of US pulling out of Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) and certain incidents with China last year. Is your assessment that we are back to a normal relationship?

PM Lee: I do not think our relations with the US were strained because the US pulled out of the TPP. They had their considerations, we understood that. We have to move on from here and see how we can make the best of this situation. With the other TPP participants certainly, but also with the US – how we can continue to broaden and deepen the relationship within the framework and the philosophical approach of the new administration.

With China we have a wide range of cooperation. Whether it is the Chongqing project, whether it is exchanges with their Central Organisation Department. Zhao Leji, a Politburo member, was in Singapore recently. There is a lot of exchanges and visits. Deputy Prime Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam was there recently. Premier Li Keqiang has accepted an offer to visit Singapore. So we have a broad relationship. There are issues which come up from time to time. We deal with them in a mature way and we move ahead. We are not at odds with China and I think China finds it useful also to be friendly with Singapore. That is a good basis on which to work.

Q: Prime Minister, from your meeting with Mr Trump. What was your impression of him as a world leader and was he different in any way from what you had heard or read about him?

PM Lee: I went in with an open mind. It is my first meeting with him. I asked him when he was last in Singapore. He thought about it and he said perhaps 10 years ago. I said, “that is a long time, I hope you will come again.” We had a good discussion. I focused on understanding how he looked at the relationship and the broad issues, and not on specific items. There is time enough for specific items later on.

He was focussed. His Secretaries were there. State was there, Commerce was there, Treasury was also there, and the National Security Advisor was there. Other than Defence, all his key officials were there. I think they understand, and we certainly understand, that our relationship with America is a very broad and substantial one. We have defence cooperation, we have economic cooperation, and we talked about security issues. We are engaged in many, many different fields, whichever is the administration, whoever is the President. These are interests which we would like to push ahead and I think they would like to push ahead too.

Q: There was talk that US was ceding its world leadership, especially so in the wake of G20 Summit, on issues such as climate change. With countries like China and Russia, what do you think are the implications of these countries stepping in to fill the void?

PM Lee: Different countries play different roles. The US role, as it has been interpreted by successive administrations over many years, is something unique. They see themselves not just as upholding US interests, but as having a responsibility to keep the global system going. Because within a stable system, the US has maximum opportunity for influence and posterity.

This new administration is different. They put US first and they put less weight on the US’ responsibility for what people call global public goods. Which means security, being the world’s policemen, upholding open, free trade because trade is good for other countries, and so on. Whether another country can come and step up and perform that role, is not so clear.

It is partly the history of how the US came to be in this position after the war. It is partly the US’ values, fundamental political, economic and social values. Seeing themselves as a unique society, as a city upon the hill and light unto nations. Other countries do not have that history. I do not think they have that self-image. Certainly they do not have that tradition of statecraft. It is much more a realpolitik, pragmatic, tradition of statecraft. It is not so clear that if the US decide to play a different role, somebody else can step into what the US role used to be. We will have to see how things develop.

Q: 总理可以请你简单总结一下这次参加G20峰会还有德国访问的一些感想。

李显龙总理: 这次来德国首先是访问默克尔首相。我跟默克尔首相已经见了好几次面。每次都有充实的讨论。讨论多方面的课题，但是主要是讨论我们区域问题和彼此对世界的见解。这一次也不例外。当然我们双边合作也有很充实的内容。那我向默克尔首相建议我们两边的部长应该一起讨论我们双边合作，那可能可以拟定一个协议。她有机会到新加坡的时候我们可以宣布这个协议，为新加坡跟德国的合作制定一个新的方向。 她同意了，所以我相信这是会实现的。

20国集团峰会，这次开会的成果比较复杂。因为美国的态度和立场跟其他国家的态度和立场有显著的不同点。所以彼此之间他们敲定了一份文告。文告并没有表示两边达成共识，但是却承认两边之间仍有不同的见解。 由其是对国际贸易的见解和对气候变化的见解。这些是很大的问题。并且两边的出发点很不相同。所以我不相信这个问题会很快的解决。可是从新加坡的观点来说，这是一场收获不错的一个会议。因为我们在会议上有机会提出新加坡对于贸易，数码化，就业机会的观点。这些不只是关系到新加坡的问题，其他国家也是很关注这些问题。

同时在会议的边缘上，我有机会跟好几位其他国家的领袖会见。习近平主席，特朗普总统和安培晋三首相等等。这些来往对双边都很重要。形式上很重要。形式上让两边知道，让世界知道，我们的关系是平稳，向前进的。但是，实质上这些会议也是让我们讨论合作项目，讨论新的发展领域的一个好机会。

Q: 总理可以澄清一下那个协议是贸易上面的？

李总理: 是双边的合作。合作不只是贸易上面的。合作有些是安全方面的合作，有一些是国防方面的合作，当然也有贸易的合作。我们也希望德国支持新加坡跟欧盟的自由贸易协定的核准。所以很广泛的合作范围。